General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Sonic has flaws, but he as a person is aware of them and content with them. He doesn't need to "develop" past those flaws because he's accepted that, as a person, he is inherently not flawless.

But IDW still bad because it actually puts such a heavy emphasis on trying to redeem villains and/or give them the chance to. Metal Sonic clearly expressed interest in serving Eggman, and in being a weapon, and would have continued to do so regardless of circumstances - hell everything it did up to that point in IDW was to take over the world and hand it over to Eggman when he returned.

Speaking of Eggman, Mr. Tinker wasn't a redemption, it was a case of massive amnesia that resulted in him acting VERY strangely. And treating it like it was ever a case of Eggman turning good is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of what went on. And yet Sonic refuses to let Mr. Tinker go.

It's so weird coming out of someone who has historically been fine to go with the flow of whatever's already going on.

That's pretty much how I view it anyway. I've never been of the opinion that Sonic stories just got irrevocably worse in 2010 as is the popular opinion.

They just changed...whether for the better or worse is up to you.

Now if you pointed a gun to my head forced me to choose, I'd choose the stories of old since I appreciate ensemble stories more, but that's not a condemnation of the newer stories either.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 12th 2022 at 1:26:26 PM

I've been playing a lot of Sonic ovo188 lately and I'm just gonna throw out some of the random thoughts I've had.

I mentioned Sonic is usually written as the coolest, most competent character in the room. I think Shadow comes off as Sonic's greatest rival because he's the same way. If Sonic isn't around, then Shadow is the coolest, most competent one around. In contrast, Knuckles and Silver are kind of dorky and have gotten tricked by villains multiple times. Blaze almost is, but she can lose control of temper at times and get herself in trouble.

Speaking of, Sonic generally has contrasting traits with his rivals, but I think Blaze is a particularly fun one. Sonic is outwardly active and cocky, but inwardly he always keeps his cool and is hard to shake up emotionally. Blaze is outwardly stoic and calculated, but inwardly passionate and heated. And also, Sonic is scared of water while Blaze is scared of heights (ironic for a cat).

And I'm thinking that Knuckles might be the hardest character to write well in terms of fitting him into the story. Like, you expect him to be there, but he's the type that would often want to run in and fight the villain himself. It's not like with say Shadow, who can't be bothered half the time and is content to sit around and let Sonic handle things. If Knuckles stands on the sidelines and lets Sonic do everything it's kind of out-of-character. But if you have him run it and accomplish something major it overshadows Sonic. But if Knuckles gets his ass kicked so Sonic can handle it, then he's a jobber and who wants that?

Its weird, because they all essentially have similar traits; they're no-nonsense foils to Sonic who take things way more seriously.

It gives them illusion that they're as cool or even cooler than Sonic, hence their fanbases. Tails and Amy don't ever get to be as cool as Sonic for instance and most of the other characters don't....which annoys their fanbases a lot.

Shadow is generally the only one who gets consistently portrayed as on Sonic's level. Knuckles tends to get treated like a joke, Silver never had much of a rivalry to begin with and is more associated with Blaze by fans and Blaze herself is usually ship fodder for either Sonic or Blaze.

Games have kind of struggled to main these dynamics tho; Ian Flynn definitely doesn't share the view that Sonic & Shadow should be above everyone else for instance.

Probably because its too much like DBZ and because he likes to give everyone a fair chance. Like he definitely isn't afraid to take Shadow down a peg or give Knuckles plenty of chances to shine.

Point still being it was the closest to a Heel朏ace Turn Eggman ever had, and Sonic saw the good Eggman could do as Mr. Tinker. He wanted to believe in that rather than just end him like Shadow wanted. It ended up failing because Starline reverted him.

It never seems to be as many as Sonic fans care about.

They might be written differently but Sonic's most requested characters include ones that are literally from other dimensions and timelines.

Because they have depth and potential that is rarely utilized.

On the Flynn question last page: I'm not the least bit surprised. Sure, Sage now has an understanding and mild respect of Sonic's character now, but that doesn't make her a good guy.

And in Eggman's part, this just gives him more depth as a person, but it was never going to make him softer. Honestly, him wanting to be more focused on his destruction to do stuff to make Sage happy is funnier anyways, cause I can just imagine Eggman wreaking havoc through a city, hundreds possibly dead, just to get Sage to an ice cream store because it was the only one that had a flavor she wanted to try.

x4 x5 This all presents a solid case for bringing back multiple playable characters, or if we want to keep the ovo188 centered on Sonic and not worry so much about juggling gameplay styles, character-centered spinoffs. Latter would offer a bit more breathing room both in terms of narrative and plain old game development梙and them off to separate-but-ideally-competent developers like Nintendo does.

Edited by Chortleous on Dec 12th 2022 at 3:37:44 AM

Depends on what Sega wants to do tbh; I think Shadow's game having the infamous reputation it has kind of scared them from ever trying that again, but who knows.

Pretty lame considering Shadow's game is good and the 3rd best 3D Sonic game. People are just mean.

History does not remember it that way.

If nothing else, they still use a lot of themes from the game, so Sega haven't completely ignored it fortunately.

I would honestly hesitate to call Shadow a spinoff considering that it continued a major plot thread from the prior ovo188, and was a product of an era where even their 'mainline' ovo188 were catching shit, so it's kind a distinction without a difference.

Edited by Chortleous on Dec 12th 2022 at 3:48:42 AM

I would call it a spin-off. That continuing plot thread was pretty central to Shadow's character, but it really didn't mean anything to Sonic himself outside of Shadow's general well being. That plot thread and its resolution is pretty central to Shadow specifically.

Hell, Sonic literally didn't know the amnesia thing was going on in Heroes.

I mean, Sonic didn't interact with Shadow enough to even know the amnesia thing is going on.

Anyway, spin-off has nothing to do with continuity or canon, it's just generally there because the gameplay is different or it's not based upon the core series' character. Sonic isn't the star, which makes it easy to call a spin-off. ...Then again, the Sonic Advance ovo188 are called spin-offs, despite having no reason to be. It's an odd term.

It's technically and officially a spin-off since it neither stars Sonic nor has "Sonic" in the title. It also didn't have all the people who worked on Adventure 1/2 and Heroes working on it, a lot of them were doing planning and early work on 06 while a smaller team worked on Shadow.

That said, I always group it together with the mainline ovo188 because it is a console platformer made by Sonic Team that uses the same engine and basic framework as Heroes. Its plot follows up on Adventure 2 and Heroes, and is technically followed up on in 06 (in that if you went straight from Heroes to 06 you would have no idea how Shadow got into his present state). Generally when I see people talking about the evolution of mainline Sonic ovo188 then Shadow gets brought up as well.

Y'know, judging by Generations, it seems Sonic CD is also officially considered a spin-off, but I don't think most fans would agree with that.

Shadow 05 also has a different style of gameplay.

As an aside, 06 doesn't mention anything about Shadow's backstory, so it could be easy to assume without Shadow 05 that Shadow either recovered or decided his backstory no longer matters. Little do they know that both happened at the same time.

It should also be pointed out that Sonic didn't come to this decision lightly either. The Chaotix found Eggman first and tested him to see if it was legit before they brought Sonic there. Even then he still had doubts until the mayor of the village told the story of how Eggman had been helping them as Tinker and that it he could do a lot of good this way and pay back his depth to society. Even Rouge, the one who brought Shadow there felt it was a good idea to try (since she also leaked Eggman's location to the Chaotix before she brought Shadow there, so Sonic would be there to counter Shadow's just kill him philosophy).

And like, there weren't just gonna leave him there. Sonic had planned on checking up on Eggman regularly. It's just that right after this, the entire debacle with Metal Sonic and Angel Island went down and everybody got called in.

Starline chose his moment well, at a point when there was no one available to stop him, and this was like, maybe a few days after they all learned about Mr. Tinker. And nobody even knew about him either. He was a total Wild Card.

Speaking of Starline, because it's Ian Flynn I've been expecting him try and diversify the villain situation of the ovo188 canon. He's already done that a bit with Sage, but I do think we might see him introduce - or at least try to convince Sonic Team to let him introduce - a new villain who isn't connected to the Eggman Empire whatsoever, and who could serve as an Arc Villain for certain ovo188.

Specifically I would surprised if, by the end of Flynn's tenure on Sonic, he hadn't introduced a new animal-folk villain.

Almost certainly not Starline specifically, but someone new. It'd be the first time the franchise has tried a new antagonistic force or group that wasn't a temporarily awoken god or something since Sonic Chronicles, but it's Flynn and... yeah. I'd be surprised if he didn't at least try.

(BTW, do Sonic's people have a name in canon? Mobians is by and large an American thing from the American tv series and their spinoffs (like Archie / IDW) and isn't used in the ovo188. Personally I've always just used animal-folk. Even TailsTube just has Tails call them "people like us.")

Speaking also of the questions, can anyone ask Flynn a question or do you have to be a member of some kind of service?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 12th 2022 at 5:36:01 AM

Frontiers sells 2.5 million copies worldwide.

Honestly part of me thinks Mobian has stuck around largely because its a simply less awkward descriptor than other terms for Sonic like people. Its like Metroidvania; maybe not the most ideal term but no one's thought of anything better.

Edited by BorneAgain on Dec 12th 2022 at 9:06:07 AM

So basically a better version of the Deadly Six?

Flynn actually made the Deadly Six pretty good. Wouldn't mind seeing them again under his pen tbh.

We can never have enough Zavok tbh.

I feel there could be better work done with the Deadly Six. Zavok got much better writing, but other than Zeena truly reaching Love to Hate status, I felt the other 4 still need some work to do. It helps Zavok was allowed to have interactions with other characters he wasn't fighting with.

I for one, I did request the next Sonic game to have a non-Eggman villain because...Eggman grew stale. He obtained what he wanted: conquering the world. And he was going to try again? That's genuinely boring, and is why I'm thankful Frontiers got a different antagonist in Sage, who also added a different depth to Eggman. However, I'm now ok with Eggman returning to the role, unless The End will take over the role for Frontiers DLC.

Regarding new villains - I don't know. Ultimately Flynn has no say on the matter unless Sonic Team wants to. Pontac was allowed to write the plot of Lost World, but Sonic Team gave him the characters he was allowed to use.

How fast is that compared to older entries @tclittle